I wonder if you would all help me with something? After yet another comment seen about just relaxing and shag lots on another forum for people TTC with difficulty -

I've looked at the empty arms video and would like to put together something similar for friends and family, online friends etc - but in a not so gentle way - all the "what not to say to someone having problems TTC" kind of stuff? And obviously I will link you all up so you can send it around too if you like?

Would you help me with providing some lines that could be used?

What do you hate people saying?

Hun, there so much people come out with like on mu avator, just relax, maybe ur trying to hard, U can always adopt, take a holiday.

xxxx

1. Please, be sensitive to our feelings. Though we celebrate with you when you become pregnant and we feel those warm thoughts of delight that you have been blessed with something that you undoubtedly want as much as we do, do not tell us "You're next" or that "it won't be long". Please don't tell us that we're next in line; that it's only a matter of time before we join you. What seem to you like words of wisdom and comfort make some of us want to break down and scream at the unfairness of this world.

2. Do not tell us that we're trying too hard, or that we should let nature take its course. For some of us, nature cannot take its course. For some of us, nature never will. Please remember that some of us will require an unnatural intervention in order to be blessed the way that so many others are.

For some of us, 'trying hard' is the only way of making our dreams a reality.

3. Do not tell us to relax. For some of us, we have endured month after month of one line instead of two, of building our hopes up only for those hopes to shatter, of imagining the patter of tiny feet only to hear our own resounding sobs of anguish when, yet again, our dreams are taken away. Do not tell us to chill out when, once more we feel those telltale cramps and that pushing, jarring agony that tells us that we are about to bleed away any hope we had.

For some of us, it takes longer than two or three months to achieve what, as women, should come naturally to us. It is stressful. It is debilitating. It is devastating.

We cannot relax. We cannot switch off our feelings.

4. We dream of a child that has its Daddy's eyes and it's Mummy's smile. We dream of a little boy or girl who is the dead-spit image of his grandmother or the absolute double of ourselves when we were born. We long to look into our child's eyes and see ourselves in them; to argue over whether or not our genes will be prominent to our husband's; whether our baby will inherit Daddy's love of cars or Mummy's love of reading.

Do not tell us to adopt because it's belitting our problem. It's making a triviality out of everything we go through in order to get a little piece of the two of us to call our own.

Do not tell us to adopt - though, there are many beautiful children out there who would relish our touch and our input; our love and our security.

Do not tell us to adopt. Adoption tells us that we've reached the end of the line; that there is no hope for us to produce something from ourselves.

Adoption is our final chance. Please don't write us off before we write ourselves off.

5. Percentages mean nothing to us. We are people, not numbers. Telling us that 93 percent of people will conceive in their first two years is not useful to those of us in the minority that do not.

Will think of more as they come to me...

I bow down to you CS - that was so perfectly worded!

I hate it when people complain about their pregnancies to me - 'oh i'm so sick' 'aarrghh I hate being pregnant' etc - HELLO...me - dying to be pregnant! Its like going to a 3rd world country complaining how full you are from having just eaten a feast fit for a king

Do not give ME advice - I know more about TTC than any fertiles ever will!!!

Don't give me advice full stop. I don't want advice, my specialist is for that, from you I want compassion, love, support, a shoulder to cry on and an ear to listen. I want to share with you my fears without you saying 'but it'll happen' because how the hell do you know that? let me share my fears and just listen!!! If you must say something, tell me how strong I am for enduring all of this because most of the time I feel weak, I need to be reminded that I am strong.

I don't find it funny when you...joke about your kids, saying how you'd like to trade them in, offering them to me, thinking you're being funny in a trying parental time...I don't find it funny at all, and if I am ever blessed enough to have a child, I will never offer him/her to anyone, not even as a joke. How do you think that makes me feel? How would I be seen if I went to a liver cancer patient, offered them my liver then laughed? Would they find it funny? I doubt it...

And this is continuing on from CS's thoughts re adoption.
Stop throwing the word adoption around! You have absolutely no idea of what is involved with in adoption. As if we haven't been through enough with invasive fertility treatments, heartbreak of it failing, dealing with the fact we will never create a child together, and now we must go through a viscious process to see if other people think we're good enough to be parents. Not to mention the costs (especially after we've exhaused most of our funds through failed fertilitly treatments) and the waiting period of average being 5-7 years. So do NOT make it out to be as easy as picking up a baby with your morning paper and milk at the store.

Understand that I am extremelly fragile. Don't beat me up for not attending parties (especially those with children present), returning your phone calls, or for being sad. If you're a real friend, you will be there for me, because right now, I need you more than ever. Making me feel guilty for not 'being myself' only makes me feel worse. I barely have the energy to endure treatment, let along the energy for being a good friend and acting my usual self. Please understand this, don't judge me for it and don't rite me off as a selfish person.

I too will add more later.

Be sensitive, and realize that this is a BIG deal to us. If you don't know what to say to make us feel better...then say nothing. I had one guy at work tell me that he didn't feel sorry for all my m/c's because I already have two kids. I can tell anyone who asks that I want baby #3 just as badly as I wanted baby #1...and it hurts me badly to know that I have lost two.

I also have people tell me "just be thankful I have two". I hate this for two reasons: one, I am so very thankful for having my two children...and this phrase always makes me feel that I am not being thankful. And two, because it makes it seem that wanting more than two children is selfish.

At work, a guy told me that he can tell that I am on "fertility drugs" (which I am not) because I was depressed a few months ago (he was referring to the month that I lost a baby). How rude can this jerk-off go?

A few more...(ah, this is like venting, isn't it?)

6. As FJL said, do not offer us your children as if they are a burden to you, as if a day of a screaming three year old is enough to make you want to trade them in for a sport's car. Do not tell me that you wish you could palm your kids off on me for a weekend so "I can see why I'm the lucky one, being able to go out when I like, not needing a babysitter, being able to spend all of my money on myself." I would give up every last penny for a baby. I would spend every last pound on my child. I would stay in for the rest of my life if only I could have what you have.

7. (this is one that has really annoyed me this week) Do not complain to me, when pregnant, about how much you miss the beer and wine, the partying, how much it bothers you to have to cut down on your nights out because you have a child inside of you. Please understand that I'm not even pregnant and I have not had a drink in years for the very reason that I am doing everything in my power to become so. Don't tell me how lucky I am that I can pour myself a nice glass of Chardonnay after a long, hard day at work. It hurts to hear you complain about it. You are blessed, not cursed. Your 'sacrifice' is for the baby that is growing inside of you. Mine is for the one that isn't.

8. Please don't tell me that "if nothing else, I have God children." They are not mine. They do not call me Mummy. They do not cry for me or reach for me. They do not need me. I do not nurture them. I did not give birth to them.

They are not mine...

9. Don't tell me that I am 'worrying for nothing' - if I was worrying for nothing I would not still be here, all this time later, about to have someone stick a camera inside of me to see what's wrong, having people check my blood and hormones to see what is 'causing the problem' - because, it is a problem, and if I was not worried about it then I would not be human.

Do not play down my fears. You are lucky that you don't have to suffer them.

Ladies, these things are very well said and the adoption one is the key. Hearing "why don't you adopt" is just a slap to the face and I am so glad that I am not the only one feeling that way.

Here is mine:

1) Do not say to me, "I will carry your baby for you." That just makes me feel broken. Knowing that I have not been able to get pregnant yet (or in some cases, not been able to carry a baby) does not mean that I never will. I do not need your fertile body because mine is not good enough. It will be but it just takes time.

2) Do not tell me about understanding how I feel when you have beautiful children and you never even tried to have them. You do not know how I feel. You will never know how I feel and saying you do just cheapens my emotions.

3) Never say to me that I will get pregnant in "God's time" or that me not having a child yet is "God's Will." That just makes me angry. Are you telling me that God doesn't want me to have a child?

4) It is okay to ask how things are going but that is all. If I want to talk about it, I will come to you. Bringing up the subject can be uncomfortable and painful. There is a time and a place for those conversations and I will let you know when that time is.

Really, I agree with everything you other ladies have said and I hope we all get 's soon!

these are great - well they aren't really, but you get my meaning!

A big one for me is people barging into conversations ( be it real life or online life) just say a good luck to you all - I find that the most patronising and upsetting thing of all to be honest. If I am talking with somone about my infertility I do not appreciate you coming in with your big fat pregnant tummy saying Ohh I am sprinkling you with dust" - if I am online and posting ion a board specifically for people like us, I do not want to see the same happening. Stay on your own board. You uspet me with your patronising haha look I got one I got what you want tone, and I'm going to covertly rub your face in it. This is what it feels like to me.

Don't tell me to be thankful for the children I already have - wtf do you think I think about them, that they are second rate now I am ttc #3?? That they are no longer my priority?? Of course I am thankful! Doesn't stop me desperately craving another child, first with my husband

Don't utter this word - Relax - how can relaxing bring your tube back, magic up sperm and eggs, put your hormones right? oh yes, it can't!

Have a holiday? see above

Get drunk? see above

Shag lots? see above

Take folic acid? It doesn't help you get pregnant, doofus. oh yes and see above..

You want to give me advice? stick your arse in the air? try doggy? yes and what do you know about it all when you got pregnant after 2 months trying? Expert are we??

I do NOT want to hear about mrs woman down the road who was ttc for 3 years, then gave up and got a bfp - chances are she didn't give up at all, no-one can give up this! chances are she was having help - she just didn't tell you that as you pissed her off for years going on about how to relax!

Breathe!

How about some thoughts on comments you want to hear from people?

For me the only comment anyone who hasn't any idea could make that is acceptable to me is "I am sorry you are having trouble - I am here for you if and when you need it"

...or, the people say "Why don't you look after my lucky bracelet for me? Or, my How to get Pregnant book? I don't need it any more because, well, I'm pregnant, now. Isn't it great?"

Makes me want to ask "yeah, why don't you just rub it in a little bit more? We know you're pregnant. We're not. Why don't you sit back and remember how it made you feel to be sprinkled with dust by those that were already graced..."

That probably makes me such a horrible person but it's how I feel. I do feel patronised. It happens a lot in real life and online. I realise people do not realise how it feel but, it does kind of place a bubble under the surface, doesn't it?

Also - IS there a handbook for fertile people? I have had that story also. "My sister was trying for eight years. She stopped trying and got pregnant straight away." I don't know about all of you but, the minute I officially gave up I wouldn't want sex for months because it would always be in the back of my mind, "What if? What if I might be?" Most likely she wasn't trying for 8 years and, if she was she never stopped.

Eight years is forever. Do you think the prospect of eight years makes me feel any better? Nope. It just makes the road seem longer.