So I'm still borderline in terms of weight gain and have another appointment in a week and a half.

I suppose I just wanted to know the answers to these questions:

Why is formula considered so bad? (what are the pros and cons)

How many of you give both formula AND breastfeed? If so, how? Is it a formula bottle at night time or is it top ups?

What is the danger of topping up or giving one bottle of formula in the day?

If I was to do this for a little while (top up or give one formula bottle in the day) coudl I then go back to exclusively breastfeeding? IF so, how and what woudl be the problems I may face?

Lastly and quite importantly: Does it get easier? I mean seriously, because of the weight loss, I am feeding ALL the time like I did when she was born (admittedly it was my fault for going off that track) but will there be a time when I can go out and not feel I have to be back within a certain time frame or else find a pace to sit for an hour so I can discreetly breastfeed? Will there be a time that she'll be done in a few minutes without me fearing her not having had enough? will there be a time I
'm not constantly feeling as though my milk production is borderline?

I know I can feed er in my moby wrap but with my switch nursing and with the length of time and how often she wants to feed and with the fact that I'm not happy breastfeeding very openly its VERY difficult. She's over 9 weeks now and we were hopoing ot have a small getaway (me, her and my OH) next week but there's nowhere I can go where I'll feel comfortable as there's no routine set number of feeds, length of feeds or length of time for a feed. Will it become easier? And if so when? I'm thinking of supplementing just to give myself a break both in terms of time and in terms of anxiety abotu weight gain but want to know the consequences.

thanks in advance for your replies.

Hi hun.
I know where you are coming from.
I had to supplement at the beginning cos of mikeys tongue tie and it did affect my supply.
At first you are constantly feeding and we would go for strecthes of 5 hours sometimes but now he will feed sometimes 20 mins sometimes 40 mins. But i know it will gt bad again for when he ahs a growth spurt.

The whole formula thing being bad i dont know of, at the end of the day they wouldnt sell something detrimental to a childs health! But for mums health ie your wanting to bf so badly it can affect you as it did with me and i would often cry when having to top up.
It took ages to wean him off the formula and also get my supply up but i did but with ALOT of hard work.

at the end of the day you are her mummy. YOU decide what to do no one else can tell you!

Good luck.
zxxxx

Why is formula considered so bad? (what are the pros and cons)
Its not "bad" its just not as good as breastmilk, FACT. It cannot and never will be as good for baby in any way as breastmilk. Its a good substitute when breastmilk is not available.

How many of you give both formula AND breastfeed? If so, how? Is it a formula bottle at night time or is it top ups?
I havent but considering the importance of supply and demand and providing your baby with as much breastmilk as possible I would advise the best way forward is as a small after breastmilk top up.

What is the danger of topping up or giving one bottle of formula in the day?
reduction of supply, confusing over bottle/fussing around bottle, less nutritional and calorific value.


If I was to do this for a little while (top up or give one formula bottle in the day) coudl I then go back to exclusively breastfeeding? IF so, how and what woudl be the problems I may face?
Yes, of course you could. Typical problems would be that your body would not be producing enough milk to meet your babies full time milk needs as you had informed your body it didnt need to make as much milk, this applies more to replacing a feed than to feeding from the breast and then after at least 20 minutes offering a 1/2oz top up, top ups would be easier to phase out than an entire feed replacement. You may well be confronted with growth spurt type behaviour, a lot of feeding and sucking, some frustration at the breast etc.

Lastly and quite importantly: Does it get easier? I mean seriously, because of the weight loss, I am feeding ALL the time like I did when she was born (admittedly it was my fault for going off that track) but will there be a time when I can go out and not feel I have to be back within a certain time frame or else find a pace to sit for an hour so I can discreetly breastfeed? Will there be a time that she'll be done in a few minutes without me fearing her not having had enough? will there be a time I'm not constantly feeling as though my milk production is borderline?
From everything you have said I dont think your milk supply is the problem, actually Im not sure there is a problem, your LO just seems to be a slow gainer and one of those babies who takes a longer amount of time to really get the hang of breastfeeding. It does get easier but you have to relinquish a bit of your need to have strict control over everything, it will get better if you give it a bit more time, you are doing well, you have stuck with it through some tough times recently and you are now taking firm steps to having improved everything for yourself and for LO. I remain convinced that if you keep going you will see that LO keeps gaining weight, maybe slower than some but she will gain and remain happy and healthy. What the scales say isnt anywhere near as important as what you see on a day to day basis with your baby. If she is happy and healthy does it really matter if she only gains 1oz a week?

I'm sorry this is still so concerning.

From what you've said I've not been sure your supply is a problem either.

It so does get easier.

Sorry this isn't such a technical reply from me, but squish says it all.

My own PERSONAL feelings about formula are that if it's illegal to advertise it, I don't want to get in to finding out just why. Having said that... many many humans do just fine using it.

I forget, are you giving EBM top ups at the mo?

OK - here's The Thing With FOrmula!! Beware, it's LONG!


It contains:
MSG
BPA
Fluorosis
DHA/ARA
Hexane
Mercury
Melamine
Cyanuric acid
Formaldehyde
Antinutrients/soy
Bacteria
Patent info on DHA and its extraction
Martek (IF corporation)
International Infant morality rates charts and formula


*MSG in formula
How many parents realize that MSG lurks in every bottle of formula given to their infants?
Patients have stronger reactions to MSG than arsenic or mercury.
In children, however, the destruction of healthy brain tissue is not the only problem associated with glutamate. A child's brain is growing, and it is suspected that excess glutamate causes connections to be made inappropriately. Certain sensors on the neurons, called growth cones, allow the neurons to detect and grow along chemical trails in the brain, ultimately constructing the necessary pathways.
http://www.curezone.com/foods/msg.asp
A child experiencing "innumerable seizures" at 6 months of age showed dramatic improvements after removal of MSG from the child’s diet. Brain Damage in Primates Evident 5 Hours after MSG Ingestion
http://www.chem-tox.com/pregnancy/pregmsg.htm
http://www.truthinlabeling.org/formulacopy.html
http://www.westonaprice.org/children/msgformula.html


*Fluorosis
Infant Formula and the Risk for Enamel Fluorosis
http://www.cdc.gov/FLUORIDATION/safe...nt_formula.htm

*BPA
The chemical is bisphenol A, or BPA, a component of the plastic epoxy resins used to line metal food cans. Dozens of laboratory studies show that BPA affects the developing brain and reproductive systems of animals exposed to low doses during pregnancy and early life.
1 of every 16 infants fed the formula would be exposed to the chemical at doses **exceeding** those that caused harm in laboratory studies.
http://www.ewg.org/reports/infantformula
Based on its analysis of existing research on BPA, even a very small amount of the compound may cause a host of problems, from brain and behavioral disorders to cancer, a claim the formula makers and federal regulators adamantly deny.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/12/04/bpa.formula/
Bisphenol A (BPA), known as the 'gender bender' chemical, leaches into liquid baby formula from the linings of cans at levels dangerous to infant health
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/...els-says-group



*DHA
omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids, produced in laboratories and extracted from algae and fungus, into infant formulas. The report presents disturbing research indicating that the new additives placed in infant formula are seriously endangering the health of some formula-fed newborns and toddlers. algal-and fungal-based DHA/ARA have been linked to serious side effects such as virulent diarrhoea and vomiting in infants consuming infant formula.
http://www.cornucopia.org/replacing-...ormula-report/
http://cornucopia.org/DHA/DHA_FullReport.pdf
April 15, 2008–The Cornucopia Institute filed a legal complaint with the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) today, demanding that the agency enforce the organic regulations prohibiting toxic solvents from being used in the production of organic food.

http://www.circleoffood.com/blog/200...s-with-toxins/
*DHA/ARA that has been extracted from laboratory-grown fermented algae and fungus and processed utilizing a toxic chemical, hexane. Here's a link to the full report: http://cornucopia.org/DHA/DHA_FullReport.pdf

*Hexane
In some cases the oils are extracted from non-toxic algae and soil fungus using chemicals such as hexane, acid and bleach.
Hexane is a volatile liquid found in glue and gasoline. When inhaled in high volumes it can cause nausea, euphoria, headaches and nerve damage. You can read more about the hexane process and formula supplementation by downloading a report at the Cornucopia Institute.
http://www.organic-baby-resource.com...t-formula.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexane

*Mercury
Mercury is simply one of the most toxic substances you can put into the human body, aside from radioactive substances. As human beings, we're the only species stupid enough to actually poison ourselves.
http://www.naturalnews.com/008511.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie..._b_161334.html

*Melamine (us)
Humans and animals that consume toxic doses of melamine develop kidney stones. These hard crystals can block urinary flow and make urination painful. They can also cause kidney failure and death, pediatric kidney specialist Marc B. Lande, MD, MPH, of the University of Rochester, N.Y., tells WebMD.
http://children.webmd.com/news/20081...s-baby-formula
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4633848.shtml
Hiding the truth about melamine formula The FDA exists for only one purpose: To protect the profits of powerful food and drug companies. Babies be damned.
http://www.naturalnews.com/News_0005...rmula_FDA.html

*Cyanuric acid
This white, odorless solid finds use as a precursor or a component of bleaches, disinfectants, and herbicides.
When cyanuric acid is administered together with melamine (which by itself is another low-toxicity substance), they may form extremely insoluble crystals,[10] leading to formation of kidney stones and potentially causing kidney failure and death -- as evidenced in dogs and cats during the 2007 pet food contamination and in children during the 2008 Chinese milk scandal cases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanuric_acid
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/124130.php

*Formaldehyde
It is lethal at very high doses by ingestion and considered a human carcinogen by the International Agency for Research on Cancer
Formaldehyde damages DNA, kills cells and causes cell proliferation
http://stats.org/stories/2009/baby_b..._mar13_09.html
Melamine resin is manufactured by mixing urea with formaldehyde under heat and pressure. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-melamine.htm
Formaldehyde and 1,4-dioxane in bath products for children. Many products tested for this study contained both formaldehyde and 1,4-dioxane, including the top-selling Johnson's Baby Shampoo and Sesame Street Bubble Bath.
http://yubanet.com/life/Children-s-B...-4-Dioxane.php

*Bacteria
Powdered infant formula is not sterile which means it may contain bacteria
Enterobacter sakazakii is a gram-negative, non-spore-forming, rod-shaped bacterium within the family Enterobacteriaceae. the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported on a fatal case of meningitis in an intensive care nursery in Tennessee. The infecting organism was Enterobacter sakazakii, an unusual but often fatal, invasive pathogen. In the fatal Tennessee case, the infection was traced to contaminated powdered infant formula
http://www.foodpoisonblog.com/2007/0...nfant-formula/
http://www.nzfsa.govt.nz/consumers/f...ula-sakazakii/

The recent expert meeting recommended that caregivers to infants, particularly those at high risk (see
Q 4.), should be regularly alerted to the fact that powdered infant formula is not a sterile product.
http://www.who.int/foodsafety/public...cro/en/qa2.pdf
Charts on bacteria growth and temperatures (not sure if this is a play it safe one by formula company scientists)
http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5502e/y5502e0a.htm

*Soy formula
…soybeans act as potent enzyme inhibitors. These "antinutrients" block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors depress growth and cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. Soybeans also contain high levels of phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic acid, present in the outer portion of all seeds, which blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. A reduced rate of growth is especially serious in the infant as it causes a delay in the accumulation of lipids in the myelin, and hence jeopardizes the development of the brain and nervous system.
http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/infant.html

*Patent info on DHA and its extraction *(assigned by Martek Bioscience corp)
BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION
it is an object of the present invention to provide a single-cell edible oil containing DHA. In general, it is an object of the present invention to produce single-cell oil in commercially viable yields (one that doesn’t smell offensive because of the source of the ingredients fish eyes etc). The oil, characterized herein as a "designer" oil, after extraction can be used in infant formulas, baby foods, dietary supplements and pharmaceuticals.
http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/5397591.html

*Martek and a look at their finances and ratings in early 2009
Product sales were up 7% versus last years first quarter. (This is campaigning AGAINST breastfeedin btw)
The strength of our core infant formula business, growing consumer awareness of the health benefits of DHA
http://seekingalpha.com/article/1241...all-transcript

*International Infant morality rates charts and formula
http://www.naturalfamilyonline.com/a...a-report-2.htm

I am sure there is more. The main "pro" is that formula is better than starving your baby.

I combi-fed DS. I *switched* one of his day feeds for a formula feed. It negatively impacted my supply, and I had to offer MORE feeds to compesnate, and pump as well. At one point I was so dry at the end of the day that I decided to introduce formula at bed time as well (again instead of bfdg, not a top up) to see if it was true that it would help him sleep longer. We did get an extra hour, but I look back and wish I hadn't done it; he only ever woke once in the night regardless.

The main danger, aside from the risks associated with ff itself, is that your milk supply will drop further, so you introduce MORE formula, so you introduce MORE formula... until you're not bfdg at all. If you manage to switch to SOME formula, and stabilise your supply, then it's wholly possible to go back to EBF... but again, means MORE feeds, MORE pumping and takng supplements/drugs to get you supply back UP. If you dry up completely , it is still possible to relactate.... but it's not easy.

Yes, it does get easier. NOrmally I'd say it should be easier BY NOW, but since you've had difficulties, it's not surprising you've been set back.

Have you experimented with different wraps? Can you not do the switch feeding/compression etc AT HOME and skip that part when you are out and about, unless you are seated and able to do it comfortably?

As it is at the moment, it's HARD, but you can look forward to it getting easier. If you supplement to give yourself a break, it might feel jolly easy at the time... but if you want to stabilise/increase your supply, or go back to EBF... you can look forward to it getting HARDER.

How many feeds does she get at night?

damn dbl post

You have a lot more faith in "them" than I do

JESUS. I feel like shit now that i have given my baby even one bottle let alone a top up of some for 4 weeks

Thats awful tho why would they sell that shit?
x

same reason macdonalds got away with selling beef burgers made of like 5% actual meat for years and how they sell rusks that are full of sugar etc etc

i feed 'that shit' to my daughter every day thank you very much